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Comments on: Jocks don’t trust geeks?! http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2007/11/06/jocks-dont-trust-geeks/ The Visible Hand in Economics Tue, 06 Nov 2007 22:44:42 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.9.4 By: Kimble http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2007/11/06/jocks-dont-trust-geeks/#comment-481 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 22:44:42 +0000 http://tvhe.wordpress.com/2007/11/06/jocks-dont-trust-geeks/#comment-481 4th down plays work because of their rarity; people arent expecting you to try something so stupid. All the study probably suggests is that there is an advantage in doing something the opposition doesnt expect.

Would it pay off in the long run? How long would it take the very sophisticated defensive strategies to adjust to this new tactic? They are the reason 4th down plays are becoming rarer.

Thinking about it, I dont think it would be a permanent advantage. It may not even last the season. You might get a few small gains out of it, but when it comes to the ‘money’ games at the end of the season, it is probably suicide.

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By: rauparaha http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2007/11/06/jocks-dont-trust-geeks/#comment-482 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 04:04:15 +0000 http://tvhe.wordpress.com/2007/11/06/jocks-dont-trust-geeks/#comment-482 Well, I definitely don’t understand modern football: I don’t even know what a fourth down is 😛

I agree that there’s probably a lot of behavioural psychology type stuff going on in the reactions of people to losing a game at the last minute. There’s a lot of loss aversion in the decisions made on fourth down, no doubt. However, if something pays off over the course of a season and the players’ incentives don’t encourage it then surely the incentives are wrong.

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By: Kimble http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2007/11/06/jocks-dont-trust-geeks/#comment-483 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 03:52:00 +0000 http://tvhe.wordpress.com/2007/11/06/jocks-dont-trust-geeks/#comment-483 The geek doesn’t understand modern footbawl!

Possession is EVERYTHING in football. A turnover is golden. A turnover with good field position is platinum.

He is asking them to make the higher variance play, even in situations where the turnover would be fatal (turnover in your own half with the scores tied). They probably arent making the play less because a geek suggested it was the statistically correct one. They are making it less because there is more at stake than there was several years ago.

There may be one scientifically determined best-play, but is the science taking into consideration fan disappointment? If a coach or a QB calls a running play on the 4th down, their decision making is called into question. Is it taking into consideration loss of confidence in the QB? (Which can cripple any team.)

Is it taking into consideration the players bonus structure? Is the running back going to miss his season bonus if he turns the ball over too much? (Dont underestimate the complexity of the reward structure in a professional sports team.)

The benefit of playing this more agressive, higher variance, style will come through over the course of a season or a career. In this respect, they are indistinguishable from a number of other things that got you to the Superbowl. Was it the more aggressive 4th down play that got you there? Or was it the 0.02 increase in the reaction time of your QB?

But if you balls up the 4th down play, the penalties are very easy to see.

Incremental gain vs catastrophic loss.

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By: rauparaha http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2007/11/06/jocks-dont-trust-geeks/#comment-485 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 03:25:31 +0000 http://tvhe.wordpress.com/2007/11/06/jocks-dont-trust-geeks/#comment-485 Well, how many professional franchises are listed on the stock exchange these days? You could just give the coaches options, I guess. i think the only problem with wins is adjusting for the quality of the players. Perhaps they could be paid bonuses for improving the win ratio relative to the previous season or something.

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By: Matt Nolan http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2007/11/06/jocks-dont-trust-geeks/#comment-484 Tue, 06 Nov 2007 03:05:52 +0000 http://tvhe.wordpress.com/2007/11/06/jocks-dont-trust-geeks/#comment-484 Dirty old agency problem. So what mechanism should we put in place to solve the agency problem between the fans and the coach? I suggest basing their salary solely on the number of wins 😉

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