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Comments on: Rule following and bus drivers http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2007/11/28/rule-following-and-bus-drivers/ The Visible Hand in Economics Wed, 19 Dec 2007 19:02:55 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.9.4 By: Matt Nolan http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2007/11/28/rule-following-and-bus-drivers/#comment-555 Wed, 19 Dec 2007 19:02:55 +0000 http://tvhe.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/rule-following-and-bus-drivers/#comment-555 “Everyone seems to have missed all the time that is being lost while the bus is stopped”

That is definitely an annoying cost of this policy, I hate it when traveling takes longer than it needs to 😉

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By: peteremcc http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2007/11/28/rule-following-and-bus-drivers/#comment-554 Wed, 19 Dec 2007 06:44:53 +0000 http://tvhe.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/rule-following-and-bus-drivers/#comment-554 Everyone seems to have missed all the time that is being lost while the bus is stopped. 30 seconds x everyone on board!

But yeah, if part of the cheaper ticket deal is standing, then stand. It’s the same on the Wellington trains btw.

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By: Matt Nolan http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2007/11/28/rule-following-and-bus-drivers/#comment-536 Fri, 30 Nov 2007 02:24:24 +0000 http://tvhe.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/rule-following-and-bus-drivers/#comment-536 “Biological evolution may be random (though to be fair, it may not be), but societal evolution isnt. You have rational actors within the system testing it and making changes.”

Although we may have rational agents, the choice to follow rules is a rule based method of maximising utility, which does not involve agents changing behaviour based on the latest information. If agents could re-evaluate their behaviour in their own best interest, the social norm would not hold in the first place.

As a result, any changes to the social norm must be the result of random mutations to the rule, which are not at the behest of individual agents.

There is a difference between the child example and the bus example. In the child example a rule developed that gave an individual information to use in their own best interest, these are likely to be optimal. In the bus example we had a social norm that evolved ‘potentially’ to put the social good above the good of the individual (this involves assuming that the value to sitting is greater for the adult than the child, or that it provides an appropriate social structure for transaction etc etc). It is possible for the social structure to change but for the rule to stay, in this case it may be better to have no rule, than an antiquated rule.

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By: Kimble http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2007/11/28/rule-following-and-bus-drivers/#comment-539 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 23:01:25 +0000 http://tvhe.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/rule-following-and-bus-drivers/#comment-539 Biological evolution may be random (though to be fair, it may not be), but societal evolution isnt. You have rational actors within the system testing it and making changes.

Just look at parenting in the 20th and 21st century. New fadish things were tried in parenting. A simple thing like how to deal with a crying baby had dozens of new and better solutions, but in the end what worked? Wrapping them up tightly, holding them, rocking them, and sssshing in their ear. This was known for centuries, millenia, before the experts came along to tell us a “better” way.

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By: rauparaha http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2007/11/28/rule-following-and-bus-drivers/#comment-534 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:49:06 +0000 http://tvhe.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/rule-following-and-bus-drivers/#comment-534 Just cos a norm has evolved and is evolutionarily stable doesn’t mean it’s a good thing. Evolution doesn’t design things to be beneficial to us, and most mutations which are only marginally beneficial won’t propagate in the population. It is mistaken to think that evolution ‘creates’ an ‘optimal’ society or norm: evolution is blind to good and bad. Unless we know what social advantage the norm of deference gave us we can’t evaluate whether it’s good or not. There may well be mechanisms we could design which are far more efficient that achieve the same thing.

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By: rauparaha http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2007/11/28/rule-following-and-bus-drivers/#comment-535 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 09:39:25 +0000 http://tvhe.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/rule-following-and-bus-drivers/#comment-535 Just cos a norm has evolved and is evolutionarily stable doesn’t mean it’s a good thing. Evolution doesn’t design things to be beneficial to us, and most mutations which are only marginally beneficial won’t propagate in the population. It is mistaken to think that evolution ‘creates’ an ‘optimal’ society or norm: evolution is blind to good and bad. Unless we know what social advantage the norm of deference gave us we can’t evaluate whether it’s good or not. There may well be mechanisms we could design which are far more efficient that achieve the same thing.

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By: Andrew http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2007/11/28/rule-following-and-bus-drivers/#comment-538 Thu, 29 Nov 2007 01:55:45 +0000 http://tvhe.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/rule-following-and-bus-drivers/#comment-538 I guess when I was riding the Wellington bus system a few years back, these rules escaped my notice.

We have no such ones in Canada.

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By: Matt Nolan http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2007/11/28/rule-following-and-bus-drivers/#comment-537 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 23:54:43 +0000 http://tvhe.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/rule-following-and-bus-drivers/#comment-537 The way I see it, social rules evolve to improve outcomes for a given social structure. If this structure changes enough, the rule can end up making outcomes worse than without the rule. That is why monarchies collapsed and dominant religions changed.

Human nature is so heavily intertwined with social issues that I find it difficult to believe that there will be any ‘mean-reversion’ within social structures. Social structures are not stable equilibrium, that is why they are so dynamic and changing. The only thing on see constant about human nature is the need to maximise utility, and all that tells us is that people have the ability to reference ‘self’ and make choices.

Although you are right that we should be careful about throwing out social norms, just because we feel they do not fit, after all there was a purpose for them in times gone by. However, I think the best thing to do would be to try and understand the purpose of the rule, and see if it still (or in some reasonably conceivable circumstances will) be a rule of thumb that is useful for society.

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By: Kimble http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2007/11/28/rule-following-and-bus-drivers/#comment-546 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:44:17 +0000 http://tvhe.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/rule-following-and-bus-drivers/#comment-546 “covering every temporary social arrangement”

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By: Kimble http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2007/11/28/rule-following-and-bus-drivers/#comment-551 Wed, 28 Nov 2007 22:41:21 +0000 http://tvhe.wordpress.com/2007/11/28/rule-following-and-bus-drivers/#comment-551 I think social arrangements are temporary, human nature is constant, and that the fundamental social rules work with, but at the same time counteract, human nature.

They are not going to be optimal at every point in time, covering all temporary social arrangements, but in the long-term (as in thousands of generations) they probably do better than their opposite.

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