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Comments on: Probation periods: How I see it at the moment http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2008/12/10/probation-periods-how-i-see-it-at-the-moment/ The Visible Hand in Economics Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:35:30 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.9.4 By: Matt Nolan http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2008/12/10/probation-periods-how-i-see-it-at-the-moment/#comment-4014 Wed, 10 Dec 2008 09:35:30 +0000 http://tvhe.wordpress.com/?p=2347#comment-4014 I’m not sure if Catholicism ensures first best solutions – I should research that and add it to this post:

http://tvhe.wordpress.com/2007/10/31/was-jesus-an-early-applied-economist/

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By: rauparaha http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2008/12/10/probation-periods-how-i-see-it-at-the-moment/#comment-4013 Wed, 10 Dec 2008 05:22:37 +0000 http://tvhe.wordpress.com/?p=2347#comment-4013 “Remember, we are in a second best world here ”

Huh??? I never expected a Catholic to acknowledge constraints on God’s creative powers 😛

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By: Matt Nolan http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2008/12/10/probation-periods-how-i-see-it-at-the-moment/#comment-4003 Wed, 10 Dec 2008 05:04:09 +0000 http://tvhe.wordpress.com/?p=2347#comment-4003 “This does away with all of that, but only for the first 90 days. That is the principal advantage.”

Indeed, but by increasing its effectiveness you also increase the use of the policy, and its ability as a signaling device – which is where I think there is the potential for movement to a suboptimal outcome.

“Matt, I don’t doubt you can model a situation where compulsory probation is bad compared to “perfect information, negotiable probation”, but I really think the question here is whether it is bad compared to “imperfect information, no probation”, which on the basis of Nigel’s comment, is the status quo.”

Indeed I completely agree. However, as I have said it is not obvious which one of these outcomes is better – it depends on what one is further away from the 1st best outcome. Remember, we are in a second best world here 😉

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By: CPW http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2008/12/10/probation-periods-how-i-see-it-at-the-moment/#comment-4002 Wed, 10 Dec 2008 04:50:09 +0000 http://tvhe.wordpress.com/?p=2347#comment-4002 Matt, I don’t doubt you can model a situation where compulsory probation is bad compared to “perfect information, negotiable probation”, but I really think the question here is whether it is bad compared to “imperfect information, no probation”, which on the basis of Nigel’s comment, is the status quo.

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By: Nigel Kearney http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2008/12/10/probation-periods-how-i-see-it-at-the-moment/#comment-4008 Wed, 10 Dec 2008 04:19:55 +0000 http://tvhe.wordpress.com/?p=2347#comment-4008 The so-called ‘probationary period’ is current law is really quite different to the National proposal because the employer still has to follow quite strict rules about process. The employment court will rule in favour of the employee whenever it can, e.g. if the employer makes any kind of procedural error in the dismissal process. It is really quite tricky for employers to get rid of anyone in a way that the employment court will find acceptable.

This does away with all of that, but only for the first 90 days. That is the principal advantage.

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By: Matt Nolan http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2008/12/10/probation-periods-how-i-see-it-at-the-moment/#comment-4012 Wed, 10 Dec 2008 04:08:56 +0000 http://tvhe.wordpress.com/?p=2347#comment-4012 “Matt, it seems I could easily reverse your example, and say we’re currently stuck in an ineffecient equilibrium where employers want to use probation periods but are afraid that would signal that they’re bad employers who are prone to firing.”

Yes, definitely.

“I realize that assessment of this policy hinges on a number of aspects for which their is no quantitative data yet, but my instinct is that workers hiding their type (hard-worker or shirker) is a bigger inefficiency than employers hiding their type (good or bad employer)”

Agreed – however, my comparison many depends on employees with multiple dimension that depend on the existence of probation – rather than an employee and employer dimension. I definitely do not assume bad employers.

As Rauparaha says my idea needs a lot of work – however, I do get the feeling that we can have “excess probation, a feeling I just can’t shake. As a result, at some point I must model it 😛

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By: CPW http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2008/12/10/probation-periods-how-i-see-it-at-the-moment/#comment-4011 Wed, 10 Dec 2008 04:03:25 +0000 http://tvhe.wordpress.com/?p=2347#comment-4011 Matt, it seems I could easily reverse your example, and say we’re currently stuck in an ineffecient equilibrium where employers want to use probation periods but are afraid that would signal that they’re bad employers who are prone to firing.

I realize that assessment of this policy hinges on a number of aspects for which their is no quantitative data yet, but my instinct is that workers hiding their type (hard-worker or shirker) is a bigger inefficiency than employers hiding their type (good or bad employer). I base this on the fact that the returns to securing a good job through hiding your quality seem a lot higher than the gains from constantly firing and rehiring (given that new workers normally cost the firm in net terms).

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By: Matt Nolan http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2008/12/10/probation-periods-how-i-see-it-at-the-moment/#comment-4010 Wed, 10 Dec 2008 03:58:25 +0000 http://tvhe.wordpress.com/?p=2347#comment-4010 “I can imagine that there are benefits to having people on rolling probationary contracts since it gives you a lot more flexibility in dealing with your workforce”

In the law they are passing it is illegal to have a rolling probation contract – you can’t hire the same person with a probation clause twice in some space of time.

“I thin we really need an endogenous explanation of why they dont’ like the probationary period in order to make this model fly”

Agreed – I am just assuming that “preferences differ” – which is of course a cardinal sin in economics. However, for practical purposes its just how I feel on the inside when looking at this policy ya know 😛

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By: rauparaha http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2008/12/10/probation-periods-how-i-see-it-at-the-moment/#comment-4009 Wed, 10 Dec 2008 03:54:48 +0000 http://tvhe.wordpress.com/?p=2347#comment-4009 “if the firm only wants to hire a worker for 89 days, and the worker is happy with the rate of compensation, what is the problem?”

It’s illegal to hire someone on a fixed term contract if you don’t have a good reason for the fixed term. I can imagine that there are benefits to having people on rolling probationary contracts since it gives you a lot more flexibility in dealing with your workforce. That probably has to be balanced against the specific investment you’ve made in the worker, as you point out.

“Averse to probation to not averse.”

The question is, why are they averse to probation? Why would hard working types not want to credibly signal their hard working nature? Admittedly, there is probably uncertainty over whether they keep the job, regardless of their effort. But that’s an issue that can be sorted out with the right contractual incentives.

I think we really need an endogenous explanation of why they don’t like the probationary period in order to make this model fly. I’m not panning your model, I just think it needs further development before you publish it in the AER 😉

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By: Matt Nolan http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2008/12/10/probation-periods-how-i-see-it-at-the-moment/#comment-4004 Wed, 10 Dec 2008 03:24:57 +0000 http://tvhe.wordpress.com/?p=2347#comment-4004 To be more clear, I think there are four types of agents from a mix of characteristics:

Lazy to Hard working and,

Averse to probation to not averse.

As firms can’t observe the characteristics, they may presume that agents who don’t want a probation period are lazy – when in fact some of them are just averse to probation. In this sense, people who are hard working by averse to probation have to choose between taking a contract with probation or not at all, even though net welfare would be maximised if no probation clause existed.

In the extreme, we can compare a situation where everyone is on probation to a situation where no-one is. I don’t think it is clear which situation is socially optimal.

Because of signaling, it is possible that allowing probation could lead to an equilibrium where everyone has to accept probation in their contract, even though with full information the employer and employee would not agree on a contract with probation.

As a result, if the benefit to employees is sufficient small and the cost to employees in the right range, it could be socially optimal to ban probation altogether.

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