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Comments on: Nick Smith is the bag man http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2009/03/30/nick-smith-is-the-bag-man/ The Visible Hand in Economics Sat, 18 Apr 2009 08:59:38 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.9.4 By: TVHE » Plastic bags: industry-based solution versus regulation http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2009/03/30/nick-smith-is-the-bag-man/#comment-19108 Sat, 18 Apr 2009 08:59:38 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=3436#comment-19108 […] Foodstuffs have recently announced that they will voluntarily introduce a 5c charge per plastic bag consumed through their New World and 4 Square supermarkets, with the revenue generated being used for an “environmental initiative” (previous post on the issue here). […]

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By: clinton Schwartzberg http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2009/03/30/nick-smith-is-the-bag-man/#comment-18741 Fri, 03 Apr 2009 14:26:08 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=3436#comment-18741 There is obviously a lot to discover about this subject. I agree with most of the points raised though.

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By: rauparaha http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2009/03/30/nick-smith-is-the-bag-man/#comment-18572 Mon, 30 Mar 2009 23:23:16 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=3436#comment-18572 @ Eric

I am not familiar with that paper, but I have printed it out now so I’ll have a think over it, thanks.

@ Brad

I’m not sure it is irrelevant, but I need to think it over more before I’m certain. My initial thought is that it is consumer decisions which determine demand for bags and they face zero MC when MSC is non-zero. Since overseas experience shows demand to be highly elastic, that could be a significant difference which would suggest that social costs are not internalised.

However, the argument that supermarkets face that MC and determine how much to buy still nags at me. I just haven’t yet had that flash of understanding where it all becomes clear!

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By: Brad Taylor http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2009/03/30/nick-smith-is-the-bag-man/#comment-18570 Mon, 30 Mar 2009 23:12:03 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=3436#comment-18570 @rauparaha

Surely the fact that consumers don’t pay the marginal private cost of bags is largely irrelevant. The cost of bags to supermarkets has to be pretty close to zero, since they don’t find it worthwhile to charge for them. As things stand, the business doesn’t make the final consumption decision, but it could if it so chose. The relevant consideration is the difference between marginal private and social cost. I doubt that the difference between zero and the marginal private cost of bags is high enough to be policy-relevant. You need to specify some significant externality to even begin to justify intervention. Even then, I don’t see how the MC to shoppers should come into it. Shouldn’t it be enough that supermarkets pay the full MC of bags, without being forced to charge consumers if the transaction costs remain prohibitively high?

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By: Eric Crampton http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2009/03/30/nick-smith-is-the-bag-man/#comment-18564 Mon, 30 Mar 2009 21:30:25 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=3436#comment-18564 There may well be a potential negative externality; I just can’t buy that it’s a pareto-relevant one. It’s important to make that distinction. Buchanan-Stubblebine 1962.

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By: rauparaha http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2009/03/30/nick-smith-is-the-bag-man/#comment-18562 Mon, 30 Mar 2009 19:48:22 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=3436#comment-18562 @Brad Taylor
I think it depends on the social vs private cost of having ‘too many’ of the item. If we think there will be a significant environmental cost to having far too many bags floating around then maybe it is a problem that businesses don’t charge for marginal bags. It may not be a problem for the business but it may be a problem that the government wants to fix. The cost of the bags is internal to the business, but it’s not the business that makes the final consumption decision, it’s the buyer.

I’m still not sure how I feel about this, but I just don’t think I have a good enough grip on it yet to be confident that there’s no reason for intervention.

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By: Brad Taylor http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2009/03/30/nick-smith-is-the-bag-man/#comment-18559 Mon, 30 Mar 2009 10:31:45 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=3436#comment-18559 @rauparaha
“The thing I still don’t get about plastic bags is that, when you make a bag consumption decision at the supermarket, you face a MC of zero. Obviously the cost of consuming a bag isn’t zero, so the price consumers face isn’t the MC. How then can the quantity consumed be optimal?”

There are plenty of things which businesses don’t charge consumers for at the margin. Absent a compelling externality argument, the cost of bags are internal to the business, which would charge for them if it were worth the transaction cost. Do you also think the government should tax salt sachets at restaurants, on the grounds that consumers face a marginal cost of zero and consumption will not be optimal?

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By: goonix http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2009/03/30/nick-smith-is-the-bag-man/#comment-18557 Mon, 30 Mar 2009 09:25:08 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=3436#comment-18557 @rauparaha

Fundamentally I don’t see the problem with charging a small amount for a bag (much like you would charge for any other good or service). So if there is no externality, and some consumers are forced to pay a small fee for the convenience of a bag as businesses try to look environmentally friendly, I have no problem. Who knows, consumers might even score some utils off it too. 😛

If there is an externality, and businesses gradually migrate voluntarily to charging for bags, as seems to be the case, compulsion seems to be a bit heavy handed and unnecessary.

Either way, I see no need for the government to direct businesses w.r.t bags.

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By: rauparaha http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2009/03/30/nick-smith-is-the-bag-man/#comment-18556 Mon, 30 Mar 2009 08:42:40 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=3436#comment-18556 @Eric Crampton
I certainly agree that people often call something an externality when it’s not, just to support thier desire to tax it. The thing I still don’t get about plastic bags is that, when you make a bag consumption decision at the supermarket, you face a MC of zero. Obviously the cost of consuming a bag isn’t zero, so the price consumers face isn’t the MC. How then can the quantity consumed be optimal?

@ Brad Taylor
There certainly are a lot of people like that; but, as Eric said, it’s OK as long as they make their value judgements clear. (I think I’m channelling Matt here!)

@ goonix

I guess these are just marketing measures to greenwash their businesses. If there’s no case for compulsion then they’re not helping the planet by charging. If they is an externality problem then the idea of solving it via voluntary measures would be a bit ridiculous.

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By: goonix http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2009/03/30/nick-smith-is-the-bag-man/#comment-18555 Mon, 30 Mar 2009 07:51:26 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=3436#comment-18555 I’m glad Key took the idea to school. Organisations are voluntarily moving towards charging for plastic bags where they see fit (see Borders, Warehouse) – I see no compelling case for compulsion.

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