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Comments on: Show us ya pimples! http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2009/04/08/show-us-ya-pimples/ The Visible Hand in Economics Tue, 05 May 2009 03:27:06 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.9.4 By: Acne Control With The Best Topical Acne Treatment | Skin Care, Acne Treatment http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2009/04/08/show-us-ya-pimples/#comment-19478 Tue, 05 May 2009 03:27:06 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=3551#comment-19478 […] TVHE » Show us ya pimples! […]

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By: Top Acne Treatment Tips | Skin Care Tips http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2009/04/08/show-us-ya-pimples/#comment-18871 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 14:44:43 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=3551#comment-18871 […] Show us ya pimples! | TVHE […]

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By: moz http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2009/04/08/show-us-ya-pimples/#comment-18861 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 00:20:39 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=3551#comment-18861 I’m against it on principle because it creates the same offence as it’s supposedly preventing – that of denying access to a public area. Sure, people are reluctant to walk past a bunch of teenagers loitering somewhere, but responding to that by making teenagers reluctant to loiter isn’t reasonable. Rather than negative reinforcement look for positive options. Also there’s a cost issue – loitering can happen anywhere, so policing “anywhere” is expensive.

Also look at the power structure – rather than addressing whether some behaviour can be prevented and at what cost to all involved there’s often an implicit acknowledgement that it will always occur and the “solution” displaces the cost of it onto a group that doesn’t matter to the people making the decisions.

In this case, rather than trying to address the problem of young people hanging around in groups making their elders feel uncomfortable[1] the decision is to keep pushing them out of areas until they arrive on the doorstep of someone who can’t push them away. Especially the case where I live and there are young people from a well off area who have strong sense of entitlement and few scruples when they don’t get their own way. A popular solution in the area is to encourage the kids to go somewhere else for weekends, and especially for parties. So the parents fund the hire of a warehouse, or purchase a “holiday house” in a cheap coastal area, and the kids go there to be young and stupid. Problem solved!

In that sense Corey Worthington is partly the exception, and partly the obvious consequence – he’s used to parties being like that, he’s been trained to regard them as normal fun, so when the enforcement of the “not at home” rule is relaxed… bingo!

[1] the problem here often being as much the intolerance of the elders as the behaviour of the youth.

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By: Brad Taylor http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2009/04/08/show-us-ya-pimples/#comment-18859 Wed, 08 Apr 2009 00:12:47 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=3551#comment-18859 @rauparaha
That’s a reasonable view, but not one I share.

I guess it comes down to how much collateral damage one is willing to accept from policy. I definitely accept some – people are sometimes wrongly convicted of crimes, but I think the balance between type I and type II errors in the justice system is about right, for example. More generally, it’s about how we weigh the rights of the individual against the welfare of others: not an easy problem to argue rationally about.

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By: rauparaha http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2009/04/08/show-us-ya-pimples/#comment-18858 Tue, 07 Apr 2009 23:47:10 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=3551#comment-18858 Well, if the harm done is largely illusory and the policy is simply bigotry then I certainly wouldn’t be in favour of it. I don’t know the harm done in this case or whether it is real. For the purposes of the post I assumed that there was a real net harm to the community. However, if one assumes that a net cost of the behaviour exists then I wouldn’t be opposed to targeting a highly correlated characteristic. There might be ‘collateral damage’ done by the installation of lights, but that needs to be weighed against any benefit. I’m not opposed to such a calculation and I think it should be done before any action is taken.

Do I think that targeting drinking in an area where there is a lot of drunken violence makes sense? Definitely. If we could tell who was going to be a problem then that would be excellent; however, in the absence of that information, a policy targeting all drinking in public may have a net benefit.

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By: goonix http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2009/04/08/show-us-ya-pimples/#comment-18857 Tue, 07 Apr 2009 23:35:42 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=3551#comment-18857 Great response. It reminds me a little of liquor bans, where one can get arrested for having a beer in a public place purely because of concern about how large groups of drunk people behave.

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By: Brad Taylor http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2009/04/08/show-us-ya-pimples/#comment-18856 Tue, 07 Apr 2009 23:29:10 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=3551#comment-18856 Oh, and on the utilitarian side, I think these sort of policies neglect the benefit that teenagers get from being able to hang out in public places. Teenagers are incredibly social creatures and anything which makes it harder for them to socialize imposes large costs on them.

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