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Comments on: Means testing fines: economic efficiency, or unjust policy. http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2010/01/13/means-testing-fines-economic-efficiency-or-unjust-policy/ The Visible Hand in Economics Tue, 26 Jan 2010 15:49:34 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.9.4 By: Franchises UK http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2010/01/13/means-testing-fines-economic-efficiency-or-unjust-policy/#comment-22741 Tue, 26 Jan 2010 15:49:34 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=4629#comment-22741 On the one hand I can see the rationale in that what will someone on a high income care about a fine that is loose change to them while those on a low income have to scrape together money to pay it. Its more fair in one sense that the fine is relative to income.

On the other hand (as steve pointed out) does it indeed create an underhanded opportunity for police to pursue high income individuals because of the extra revenue they will generate for themselves! (the morale of this being if you are rich better drive a clapped out mini to not be obvious lol)

This hasn’t happened in the UK (yet!!) But either way… if you get enough points you lose your license and can’t drive whether you are rich or poor. I see that as incentive enough.

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By: Robbie http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2010/01/13/means-testing-fines-economic-efficiency-or-unjust-policy/#comment-22726 Tue, 26 Jan 2010 00:15:14 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=4629#comment-22726 @The Hand

“However… one cannot help but feel this is somewhat excessive.”

Why? If we accept the logic that fines should be a function of wealth, or income or whatever, wouldn’t this be the logical extension of that?

“Conversely, it would seem that such laws have the potential to induce ridiculously low penalties to those without any assets. ”

Even in the absence of the sting of financial penalties, losing a licence will affect all drivers.

Another interesting technique for reducing speeding is demerit points. Italy used the insight that we dislike losses more than we like gains by awarding everyone 20 demerit points and subtracting them when you infringe the law (by contrast in NZ and most other juristictions you count up towards some barrier at which you lose your licence). This apparently led to a decrease in traffic infringements.

From ‘Nudge’ by Richard Thaler and Cass Sunstein

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By: steve http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2010/01/13/means-testing-fines-economic-efficiency-or-unjust-policy/#comment-22638 Mon, 18 Jan 2010 00:10:47 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=4629#comment-22638 Its simply the diminishing marginal utility of wealth. clearly wealthy people are on a different part of the utility curve so a greater fine is required for the same change in utility. There should be no upper or lower bound.

The problem now though is the right incentives for the law enforcers who have an incentive to catch the wealthy, but little incentive to catch the poor.

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By: kudret http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2010/01/13/means-testing-fines-economic-efficiency-or-unjust-policy/#comment-22636 Sun, 17 Jan 2010 20:53:34 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=4629#comment-22636 Thanks. (kudret)

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By: Chris http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2010/01/13/means-testing-fines-economic-efficiency-or-unjust-policy/#comment-22635 Sun, 17 Jan 2010 15:18:54 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=4629#comment-22635 I don’t think it is ethical, well that’s just my opinion.

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By: Julia http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2010/01/13/means-testing-fines-economic-efficiency-or-unjust-policy/#comment-22634 Sat, 16 Jan 2010 20:09:11 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=4629#comment-22634 “However, in examining a recent USD $290,000 (euro203,180.83) speeding ticket slapped on a millionaire Ferrari driver in Switzerland, one cannot help but feel this is somewhat excessive.”

Please explain your reasoning. A speeding ticket represents a serious health risk, both to the driver and other drivers and pedestrians. A fine must be punitive; if you’re a millionaire you’re not going to care about a $10,000 fine (especially if you’re a speed freak that is a professional sports car driver.)

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By: Job Hunting Tips http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2010/01/13/means-testing-fines-economic-efficiency-or-unjust-policy/#comment-22633 Sat, 16 Jan 2010 19:48:57 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=4629#comment-22633 I agree with the “upper bound” theory. I wouldn’t charge more than 5,000 for a speeding ticket. The idea of making tickets easier to pay for the economically disadvantaged, I like.

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By: Moz http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2010/01/13/means-testing-fines-economic-efficiency-or-unjust-policy/#comment-22615 Wed, 13 Jan 2010 06:26:52 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=4629#comment-22615 “ridiculously low penalties for those with no income” most probably means beneficiaries. Since they’re already well below the poverty line, arguably they can’t reasonably be punished any further. Since they also mostly value future benefits and costs much less than the average employed person, the fine has to be either immediate (trivial to corrupt) or ridiculously beyond their ability to pay (imposing an indefinite but small benefit cut has little effect other than acting as a massive tax on extra income and thus an incentive to stay on the benefit) Not that those arguments have any traction with government, but from an ethical point of view I think they do. So you’d need to argue purely from a deterrent effect, and also take into account the reasons for the offence.

For instance, failing to attend a job interview = loss of benefit. Getting caught driving an unlicensed vehicle is less likely, thus a preferable course of action. Even to a somewhat dim unemployed person, let alone a smart one.

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By: Matt Nolan http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2010/01/13/means-testing-fines-economic-efficiency-or-unjust-policy/#comment-22611 Wed, 13 Jan 2010 03:59:34 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=4629#comment-22611 @rauparaha

Macro forecasting still has elements of objectivity – I’m just trying to look at how little variables run around instead of saying how said variables should be distributed 😛

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By: Matt Nolan http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2010/01/13/means-testing-fines-economic-efficiency-or-unjust-policy/#comment-22610 Wed, 13 Jan 2010 03:58:42 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=4629#comment-22610 @rauparaha

Interesting stuff. And doesn’t require a random social justice element such as “society wanting people to suffer equivalent welfare costs for a crime”.

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