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Comments on: Law vs economics: preventive detention http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2012/04/12/law-vs-economics-preventive-detention/ The Visible Hand in Economics Mon, 15 Feb 2021 12:56:23 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.9.4 By: ike http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2012/04/12/law-vs-economics-preventive-detention/#comment-39813 Sat, 11 Aug 2012 19:54:00 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=6903#comment-39813 Lawyers and psychiatrists are not clairvoyant. The government has no right to ignore the rights and civil liberties of and individual just because other individuals SAY they are dangerous. I would declare war on any government that instituted these policies.

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By: Ben http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2012/04/12/law-vs-economics-preventive-detention/#comment-37487 Fri, 13 Apr 2012 06:22:30 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=6903#comment-37487 Ignore that, having reread your post and comment I think this is the point: sentences are given for four reasons – punishment, deterrance (both for the offender and for other potential offenders), community safety, and rehabilitation.  PD can be justified on each of these grounds.  However, PPOs can only be about community safety.  Your point is that in terms of that one ground PPOs are similar to (and probably better than) PD.  Geddis’ point is that PPOs fail because they are antitheical (sp?) to how the law works in relation to the other grounds (eg you shouldn’t be punished for something you haven’t done). 

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By: Ben http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2012/04/12/law-vs-economics-preventive-detention/#comment-37486 Fri, 13 Apr 2012 06:07:20 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=6903#comment-37486 In that case it sounds like you’re arguing that we have one bad law and that justifies another similar one.  Or more favourably that Geddis’ is obliged to explain why PD is ok but not PPOs – which he does by saying that PD is a response to a crime that has been currently proven, while PPOs are about a potential future crime.

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By: jamesz http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2012/04/12/law-vs-economics-preventive-detention/#comment-37485 Fri, 13 Apr 2012 05:44:16 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=6903#comment-37485 In reply to Ben.

I wholly agree with that interpretation. I just don’t see the difference between PPOs and PD in that sense. PD implies that we’re already OK with locking people up on some probability of future offending.

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By: Ben http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2012/04/12/law-vs-economics-preventive-detention/#comment-37484 Fri, 13 Apr 2012 05:27:43 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=6903#comment-37484 I think the point is more the issues around punishments based on probabilistic assessments of future offending (I think Geddis’ title supports this interpretation).  For example, if we could somehow be certain that there was an 80% chance that a prisoner would reoffend there would still be a one in five chance they wouldn’t.  The reality is that our ability to estimate isn’t all that good.  Particularly given that we are reasoning about particular offenders from general data.

You could try to argue that we should lock people up before they commit a crime if our certainty passes a certain threshhold (ignoring my earlier points about the problems applying this to an individual), but western society has generally frowned on locking up groups of people because a subset of them will/have/are likely to commit a crime.

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By: jamesz http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2012/04/12/law-vs-economics-preventive-detention/#comment-37481 Thu, 12 Apr 2012 20:21:12 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=6903#comment-37481 In reply to DT.

Its about the Rule of Law, which includes a principle of no retrospective criminal legislation.

The point Geddis makes is not about retrospective action, it’s about the difference between deciding at the time of sentencing and deciding after sentencing. I think he’s saying that indefinite detention, not linked at the time of sentencing to a crime that has been committed, is worse than PD.

why should a bunch of bureaucrats get to revisit a judges decision in sentencing?

First, it doesn’t need to be bureaucrats, it could quite easily be a judicial decision. Secondly, it is because they have better information near to time of release than the judge has at the time of sentencing. That is particularly the case for the type of criminals who these orders would apply to, since they would most likely have quite long custodial sentences in teh first instance. It seems possible that the risk of them reoffending could change over the course of the sentence. Indeed, the possibility of being subject to a PPO may encourage them to seek rehabilitation while imprisoned.

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By: DT http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2012/04/12/law-vs-economics-preventive-detention/#comment-37470 Thu, 12 Apr 2012 07:27:25 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=6903#comment-37470 Its about the Rule of Law, which includes a principle of no retrospective criminal legislation. It basically means that you can’t make something illegal or change the sentence for it so that it applies to people that have already done it. Basically, people ought to be able to make a decision whether or not to do something knowing what the consequences might be. 
This goes against that principle. People sentenced in the period when there was no preventitive detention would have thought when they committed the crime that it would not be possible to sentence them indefinitely, this effectively changes that after they have made their decision to do the crime.
There are other issues with this. In particular, why should a bunch of bureaucrats get to revisit a judges decision in sentencing? The judge is supposed to consider risk of reoffending and public safety, and if they anticipated a problem they should have taken that into account when choosing the sentence.

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