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Comments on: Black box modelling http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2012/08/14/black-box-modelling/ The Visible Hand in Economics Thu, 16 Aug 2012 05:36:00 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.9.4 By: Matt Nolan http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2012/08/14/black-box-modelling/#comment-39846 Thu, 16 Aug 2012 05:36:00 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=7399#comment-39846 http://mainlymacro.blogspot.co.nz/2012/08/handling-complexity-within.html

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By: Matt Nolan http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2012/08/14/black-box-modelling/#comment-39829 Tue, 14 Aug 2012 20:59:00 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=7399#comment-39829 In reply to jamesz.

1) I assumed that the comment thread here was about black box modeling more generally rather than ABM – as it started off with Nathaniel discussing what a black box was and you asking about the Lucas Critique, which is where my comments came from. I decided to trust what you said in the post about ABM having explained paths that make it not black box 🙂

2) Indeed.

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By: jamesz http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2012/08/14/black-box-modelling/#comment-39826 Tue, 14 Aug 2012 05:38:00 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=7399#comment-39826 In reply to Matt Nolan.

1) Sure, but not really applicable to ABM
2) Yes, hopefully neuroeconomics can help here. Behavioural stuff just seems to add black-box heuristics.

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By: Matt Nolan http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2012/08/14/black-box-modelling/#comment-39825 Tue, 14 Aug 2012 01:07:00 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=7399#comment-39825 In reply to jamesz.

Black boxes are processes where we have a set of inputs, and we just put those inputs in and outputs magically come out. The way I see it there are two places where this turns up with economists

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reduced_form

Black boxes in this form also try to see themselves as “theory free”, we are discussing a historical relationship between variables without including structural terms that will show up in the error, or within the parameter estimates of our variables. The process of using time series analysis is well understood – but our conception of the model where choice is being made is not.

The second place is to do with our conception of choice directly – we assume that inputs go into a person and outputs come out, without fully describing the mental process that we undergo. Rational choice, in this way, is more of a black box concept than a true descriptive concept – and it is our determination to move away from this black box conception that helps to make behavioural and experimental economics more popular.

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By: jamesz http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2012/08/14/black-box-modelling/#comment-39824 Tue, 14 Aug 2012 00:52:00 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=7399#comment-39824 In reply to Matt Nolan.

I agree. What I don’t really get is how you can build a model in which you specify the structure and the input data but are unable to provide intuition about the results.

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By: Matt Nolan http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2012/08/14/black-box-modelling/#comment-39823 Tue, 14 Aug 2012 00:42:00 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=7399#comment-39823 In reply to jamesz.

Black boxes don’t satisfy the Lucas critique with such models. As a result, they are useful for raw “description” and for prediction given “unknown” CP clauses (as we should be able to boil down black box models to a structural form with enough effort) and as long as policy rules don’t change given their results.

Black boxes neither explain, nor allow for policy relevant analysis – I see them as akin to reduced form time series models where the structural coefficients are unable to be solved. Useful for framing what has happened, and creating forecasts conditional on things we don’t know.

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By: jamesz http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2012/08/14/black-box-modelling/#comment-39822 Tue, 14 Aug 2012 00:24:00 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=7399#comment-39822 In reply to Nathaniel.

How do you build a mechanism that you can’t observe while still satisfying the Lucas critique?

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By: Nathaniel http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2012/08/14/black-box-modelling/#comment-39820 Mon, 13 Aug 2012 22:01:00 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=7399#comment-39820 Interesting hypothesis – I would call a black box a mechanism that cannot be fully observed and therefore the outputs of which cannot be independently verified. I would therefore call a model a black box if, regardless of how much effort one expended, the path from the model to the results cannot be seen. Essentially the results have to be taken on faith. This is fine if the consumer of model results are willing to do so – in which case BOTE models are useful – but not sufficient for quality assurance.

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