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Comments on: Ethics of doping http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2012/12/07/ethics-of-doping/ The Visible Hand in Economics Tue, 18 Dec 2012 00:32:00 +0000 hourly 1 https://wordpress.org/?v=6.9.4 By: Vanilla Thrilla http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2012/12/07/ethics-of-doping/#comment-40315 Tue, 18 Dec 2012 00:32:00 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=7846#comment-40315 In reply to jamesz.

Interesting link, although different scenario, I wonder how many would take PEDs if there were few known side effects, or unknown side effects. Going on recent history in cycling and other sports I’d say it’d be closer to 90 – 95%

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By: jamesz http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2012/12/07/ethics-of-doping/#comment-40291 Tue, 11 Dec 2012 14:05:00 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=7846#comment-40291 In reply to Vanilla Thrilla.

Thanks for the links: I’ll have to watch them this weekend.

For sure, there are the normal redistributions applied to professional sportspeople. I suppose I’m just curious that our notions of fairness here aren’t ‘fractal’, in the sense that the societal judgments aren’t then applied to the individual disciplines. You might say that we’ve already done the redistribution, but the ‘fair’ level is unlikely to be constant across different fields, so why is there no adjustment?

Imperfect information is always a problem, although the evidence shows that they’d probably have made the same decision with full information: http://leastthing.blogspot.co.uk/2011/10/goldman-dilemma.html

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By: Vanilla Thrilla http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2012/12/07/ethics-of-doping/#comment-40284 Mon, 10 Dec 2012 03:09:00 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=7846#comment-40284 But doesn’t the social re-distribution apply to sports outcomes just as it does to any other profession or trade? That is, those who become successful and earn more at sports are hit with the same re-distributive taxes as anyone else – to the extent that they’re not domiciled in Monaco obviously.

Re: doping, is there not an issue with new drugs that may have unknown future (possibly fatal) side-effects? Allowing a doping free-for-all may end up with a bunch of dead athletes, just like when EPO first hit cycling in the early 90s. In this case the rewards may not go to the most gifted or hardest working, but possibly to those prepared to take the greatest risks. Or are all costs of fatalities fully internalised by the (potentially young & impressionable) athlete making an uninformed decision?

Finally, if you’ve an interest in drugs in sports, I recommend this:
Trailer

Full doco

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By: jamesz http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2012/12/07/ethics-of-doping/#comment-40282 Sat, 08 Dec 2012 12:19:00 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=7846#comment-40282 In reply to Eric Crampton.

Indeed. The difficulty is that you are really just switching from genetic talent to genetically determined response to drugs.

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By: Eric Crampton http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2012/12/07/ethics-of-doping/#comment-40280 Sat, 08 Dec 2012 03:20:00 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=7846#comment-40280 In reply to jamesz.

If doping does more to help the lower tiers than to help the top tiers, and it then can induce ordinal changes in an all-doping equilibrium, then your egalitarian result holds. Empirical question then.

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By: jamesz http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2012/12/07/ethics-of-doping/#comment-40278 Fri, 07 Dec 2012 09:10:00 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=7846#comment-40278 In reply to Logan.

The different notions of fairness are exactly what I’m getting at here. Nobody describes cycling in the ’90s as fair, but affirmative action for most parts of society is considered to increase fairness.

Good point about the haematocrit limit; although, in cycling, it was certainly considered more exciting back then. Just think of Riis’ crazy attacks to drop Indurain, Pantani soloing over Les Deux Alpes, Armstrong’s Look on L’Alpe d’Huez: every cycling superstar is feted for their superhuman efforts until they’re caught. Similarly, nobody in bodybuilding or pro wrestling seems to think that the use of drugs diminishes the sport; if anything it makes it more spectacular!

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By: jamesz http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2012/12/07/ethics-of-doping/#comment-40277 Fri, 07 Dec 2012 09:00:00 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=7846#comment-40277 In reply to Eric Crampton.

Not true: response to doping is not equal to initial talent, I think. You can’t infer post-doping rankings from pre-doping rankings.

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By: Logan http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2012/12/07/ethics-of-doping/#comment-40276 Thu, 06 Dec 2012 20:23:00 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=7846#comment-40276 I find it interesting that cycling was used as an example in the original post. Cycling and most other endurance sports has had a restriction on red blood cells for about 15 years. While EPO was still illegal at the time, it was widely enough used to show that the restriction just becomes a goal to reach while staying out of trouble. It did have the effect of lowering the use of the biggest abusers but mostly just increased the majority up to the arbitrary level.

I doubt any who followed cycling over this period would say things were fairer. If anything it just shows that once one area has been exploited people will just move onto the next most effective method of increasing performance. In cycling this resulted in corruption and more illegal activity.

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By: Eric Crampton http://www.tvhe.co.nz/2012/12/07/ethics-of-doping/#comment-40275 Thu, 06 Dec 2012 20:21:00 +0000 http://www.tvhe.co.nz/?p=7846#comment-40275 Come on. Solve for the equilibrium here. The genetic/training best start out on top; the second-best start doping and so start doing better than the genetic/training best; the genetic/training best start doping and so we’re at an equilibrium that gets back to the pre-existing relative rankings at a higher level of real performance and with doping. Redistribution would then require that only the second-tier are allowed to dope.

More fun: think of the nootropic drugs. Same result.

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